Posted: 05 August 2003 at 12:22am | IP Logged

Sorry I couldn't think of anything better to call this post.  I suppose this is the best place for this topic although I am pretty curious what everyone else thinks about it.  Anyway, to cut to the chase I got home from being gone this weekend only to be greeted by no less than three IMs saying "did you hear about Brandon?" the IMs explained that this past weekend (a big annual party weekend put on by one of his buddies where there is lots of booze and illegal substances) he was diving into a lake at the place where the party was being held and hit is head (or neck, I've heard both) and now is basically paralyzed from the chest down.  The reason I even bring this up is Brandon is "Wiccan," to say that he claims to be Wiccan but never actually got the "harm none" concept and at times has been downright disrespectful to the divine especially the Goddess.  If you really care I can give you a laundry list of malicious things he has done in just the past  year. 

Well, at the end of the fall semester a lot of us noticed that stuff was starting to come back on Brandon: he got busted for pot possession and tresspassing by the cops over Christmas break,  and almost got kicked out of school, he was fired from his job, and in April he finally failed out of school after two years of being borderline.  Well, I'm trying to decide if this is just the latest event in the string of his cosmic payback or what I should feel.  It has just been weird ever since I heard about it I've been torn on it.  Brandon wasn't exactly one of my favorite people, but I do feel bad for the guy.  Do I think he generated enough bad Karma to cause this? Yes.  Do I think this was intended as a cosmic wake up call to shape up? Yes.  Still, even though he pissed me off I am going to send good vibes his way in the hope that he gets as well as possible.  He may have been a major jerk to put it lightly, but I don't know if he really deserved this.

I just sort of want to get your opinions on the Rule of Three and Karma and the like.  And any insight into the situation would be wonderful.

Posted: 05 August 2003 at 12:40am | IP Logged

I am inclined to believe in karma to a point, but only to a point. It is pretty clear that the universe is a pretty sloppy bookkeeper, at least over any given fifty year period; bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. I am not in a position to judge balance over multiple lifetimes, but I am inclined to think that things are better on that scale.

On the other hand, when you start talking about magic... Think of it as opening doors to the numinous. You're never really good at it, and they leak. If you build the door to only allow positive energy to come through, the leakage may well be beneficial. On the other hand, if you are bringing in negative energy, the leakage is likely to be negative, and the results unpleasant.

Uncle Hyena

Posted: 05 August 2003 at 10:54am | IP Logged

I do belive in Karma for the most part.  Although, one explanation I have been given for how things can work in this life really stuck with me, this is sort of how it was explained to me...sorry for the metaphores.  The divine have this giant "bank" and everyone has an "account," and you pay into your account by doing good things and by being respectful to the divine.  On the same token you can draw from your account by doing negative things or by asking for things, which is normally fine since you'll have enough "points" in there to still be on the positive side or they will make you a "loan" to make up the difference.  The deal with the loan is though that you have to repay it and at least get back to zero.  Although after a certain point of non-repayment or the person pulls more without putting anything back in the divine send "bill collectors" after the person in the hopes that a few "subtle" hints will get the person back on track.  If the person just doesn't get it then well... This explanation is what really influenced my first post, it may not be right, and I may sound like an unfeeling you-know-what, but it makes sense to me. 

I do agree with what Uncle said about magic.  Although, I do not think that the universe is as sloppy a bookkeeper as he does.  Sure, bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, but I think in the long run...yes, it make take years but it all works out in the end. 

Posted: 06 August 2003 at 1:26am | IP Logged

I'm sorry to hear about Brandon.  I think it's horrible what happened to him, and maybe Karma did have something to do with it, but maybe it didn't.  I was sexually abused at the age of 13 and I used to wonder what I could possibly have done to have gotten such a bad end of karma, but I've come to the conclusion that maybe it wasn't something I did...maybe it was just something I was supposed to go through so that I could learn from it and help others.  I'm going to school to be a social worker...i want to help sexually abused children...maybe I had to go through it in order to be able to help others in an effective manner.  Maybe this had to happen to Brandon so that he can go on one day to help others.  I don't know if any of this helps, but I hope it does.  I do believe in Karma...I'm not saying that I don't, but I also believe that sometimes things happen just so that we can take from the experience and move on to do greater things.

Posted: 06 August 2003 at 9:21am | IP Logged

I think “Karma” is ultimately a way of explaining what people get themselves into on their own accord. For example, if Brandon was persistently irresponsible as you’ve suggested, then it makes sense that he wouldn’t have thought to check the depth of that lake before jumping in. Thus, he brought the misfortune upon himself by continuing to behave as he always had.

What people do TO you though is not “Karma” at all. Something that can be considered Karmic should, in my opinion, be visited upon someone by their own actions, or by extraordinary circumstance. For example, let’s say someone is constantly making fun of the mentally disabled and ends up with a sever viral infection that causes brain damage. This would be Karmic where as someone stealing your car after you bragged about how nice it was would not be. That’s just irony.

-K’Tok

Posted: 07 August 2003 at 10:05am | IP Logged

Unless that fate comes in the form of being run over by a runaway 16 wheeler that slams into your hourse while you're asleep and crushes you in bed... kinda hard to be the master of that fate....

-K'Tok

Posted: 07 August 2003 at 2:58pm | IP Logged

I had originally typed out a much longer reply, but I think it can be summed up with "You reap what you sow."  Wicca is a religion of responsibility, and if you stop and think ahead, you can probably brainstorm several results (both good and bad) of your actions before you do anything.  If you know that drinking impairs your motor skills, you should also know that you could get hurt or hurt someone else if you then drive a car or operate heavy machinery.  If you know drugs are illegal, you should also know what punishment awaits you if you get caught (and none of this, "Well they tricked me into catching me" crap...if you buy pot from a plain-clothes officer, you still did something illegal).  Karma, in my opinion, is a way to face the music...you get a smile and a heartfelt "Thank you" when you help a person, you get kicked out of your apartment when you insist on breaking your lease agreement when you disturb your neighbors by playing your stereo too loud.

Now I think Karma coming back to you "threefold" is a bit of an arbitrary number...some say it's equal to maintain balance, some say it's tenfold.  Who knows?  Of course, it seems easier to keep track of the "bad karma" because it makes us uncomfortable, while the "good karma" that maintains the comfort level in our lives is often taken for granted.

So out of curiosity, what do you guys think of it coming back to you 3-fold, 5-fold, 10-fold, or any other number?

Posted: 07 August 2003 at 3:07pm | IP Logged

The number of "times" that Karma comes back at you is directly related to how many people you cheesed off in the process of making bad Karma ;)

-K'Tok

Posted: 15 August 2003 at 9:12pm | IP Logged

I would only send him energy if you can be 100% positive about it. If you have any negative feelings they might come threw too.  You also might want to some shielding before hand, just incase any negative stuff from him might cling to you... so to speak. Be Carefull! Oh and the way I interprete the 3 fold law is that your actions come back to you Spiritualy, Physicaly, and emotionaly. Not three times as strong, but in three different ways.

Dove

Posted: 23 August 2003 at 8:39am | IP Logged

K Tok you have a very vivid imagination...dont you think that if you were in bed and a running truck is about to crash into your house, dont you think that it is likely for you to hear that truck coming and get out of the way...

Posted: 12 September 2003 at 6:38am | IP Logged

I am sorry if this post seam disrespectful but i think the whole concept of karma is the most unrealistic, bogus thing in the whole of the wiccan religion. Firstly the concept of karma is a mix of two difrent concepts and a bit of be good of divinity is going to get you attitude. Now this atitude is one of the things many wiccans talk down christeanity for while they do it themself but call it carma. As for the two cocepts they are:

The law of cuase and effect. If this Brandon, got in a car whit adrunken driver and he got hurt, then that i cuase and effect. It is just like that if i walk up to a person in the street and punch them in the face, then it be cuase and effect if they punch back, not divine justice. This is comon sence.

The other law is that like aractis like, it is what was used when old herbalists used plants that look like harths to cure heath desise and so on. To a serting degree i increse the chance that if you constantly bully old ladyies from thur buss seat, you be bullied from your buss seat, but this in not general, you send out negativity and you get negetivity back.

One more thing i reacted to in this discussion, in this karma bank, you remeove good points if you ask for somthing, that is also typical, if you ask for somthing, want somthing, be it mony, buty or anything else that is bad, why had the Divine given us the whish for theese things if they dont want us to have them?

Often pagans say when bad things happen to them, oh it is karma, i have done somthing bad, either in this life or in one before. And if they have been littel angels and done nothing bad they say, oh i was suposed to learn from this. This is kind of atitude that lead seriously ill persons to be guilty for thir ilness becouse as they say, i must have dont somthing wrong.

The bottom line here is that in my opinion, Karma is a bogus scare thactic, but if you belive in it, then i guess it be that way for you, enyoy.

Posted: 14 September 2003 at 3:51am | IP Logged

Karma is about consequences and I feel the Gods have nothing to do with it. Karma is like gravity, it's a law of nature that the Gods have nothing to do with. You can't blame any particular God on your bad Karma. So, how can a law of nature scare you?  As I already stated the three fold bit means Spiritualy, emotionaly and physicaly, not three times as strong, because that doesn't make sence to me either.  So, sure you can feel bad that you did something wrong, but you can't be afraid that some divine judge is going get you back. You have no one to blame but yourself.  You can only feel as guilty as you let yourself feel guilty and you know what?  Guilt isn't always a bad thing. It's there for a reason.

Dove

Posted: 15 September 2003 at 7:49pm | IP Logged

Aswer me this, is there one divine reight and one divine wrong? If it is a natrual law that you get punish for your eveil deeds, then nature must have a concept of what is evil.

Posted: 15 September 2003 at 8:52pm | IP Logged

I belive in situational ethics, so no, there isn't one divine right and one divine wrong.  You get consequences for all your deeds, not just the bad ones. I don't like to even use the word evil, because it means things to others that I don't belive in.  "Nature" doesn't have a concept of anything. You are giving human atributes to a thing that isn't human.  You can't get mad at gravity for making something fall on your head because it has no concisiouness (sp?) and therefore, it has no "intent".  Nothing was intending to hurt you, it just happened. With Karma you have nothing to blame but your own actions which are a result of  your choices, and there are good choices and bad choices.

Our environment is "ruled" by many laws of nature and ecology. When there are many rabits, the wolf population increases due to pleantyful food to make sure that their arn't way too rabits. It's like checks and balances. Is it wrong for the wolf to eat the rabit? Or is it wrong for the rabits to starve to death because man killed all the wolves, so that the rabits breed until they have large populations and not enough rabit food? Where we think of nature  as crewl, we are seeing only the little picture. When we think of the wolf and rabit and forest as a ecosystem, the wolf is doing it's job to keep things in balance to maintain a healthy Forest. There is no evil in nature, there is "out of balance".

In other words: You have to lie in the bed you make. You reap what you sow.  What comes around, goes around.

It's safe to assume that the Gods created the earth to be self sufficent... it has a water recycling process, an air recycling process, and it self replentishes with new speacies. It makes sence that a reward/punishment system would work the same way....self sufficently....

I don't know if this answered your question... LOL

Dove

Posted: 16 September 2003 at 6:23pm | IP Logged

Yo, black sheep has something to say: s*it happens!

Yes, it's that simple. People like to read too much into things.

-Ater

Posted: 17 September 2003 at 12:55pm | IP Logged

Ecactly. But that is the law of cause and effect. If i go in the slum of a city whit alo of cash in my pocet and brag aboute it, chances is i get robbed. But what many mean is this.

If Lisa put a curse on Gregory. Somtime later Lisa get hurt back. Perhps in a car crash, or her frinds abandon her and so on. That is the concept of devine justice.

If somone put thir hand in a fire, it is going to hurt. It has nothing to de whit good or evil. It will hurt if they was going to get coal to burn thir enemy or to save a child from the flames.

Now in the other exampel. Lisa whit her curse got bad Karma and somthing bad will happen to her. Now that is not a law of nature, it is the belif in devine retubution that many Wiccan is upset at the Christian for. Sweep your own door before you critesise the dirt on others doorsteps.

Posted: 27 September 2003 at 1:47pm | IP Logged

Well, I don't belive that there is a god of Karma making bad things happen to people.  I think it's all just about energy flow, and sometimes you get good energy sometimes what you do brings you bad energy, or luck. For me it's not at all about divine retribution, that is a monotheistic consept that I have left behind. My God/dess don't work that way. 

Dove

Posted: 23 October 2003 at 4:52pm | IP Logged

I do believe in Karma, but I've never put much thought into my views of what's meant by threefold. I must say that coming back to you three different ways as opposed to 3 times as strong makes a lot of sense.

And for the record, I can sleep through anything. A few years ago the family decided it would be a good thing to put in new batteries in all the smoke alarms one day and I was sleeping when they were changing them. There was one right outside my bedroom door (literally) and after the battery was changed they decided to test it and push the button to make it go off.... I slept through the whole thing. 

Needless to say, if ever their is a fire in my house... if someone doesn't come get me, I'll burn. 

So I think that it would definitely be possible for someone to sleep through the truck incident... I would. (not that that's a good thing)