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IshTar
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| Posted: 17 August 2003 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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I was just wondering if I was the only one who believed that you can be Native American and Wiccan.I love both beliefs and do not feel like I have to "choose" which I am. Is that wrong? Is that right? I would REALLY love to hear some opions on this!
BB & MP
IshTar
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Merry Part Til We Meet Again
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K'Tok
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A couple of things on this… Just to be clear, the only way to “be Native American” is, well, to be a Native American by birth. Following a Native American shamanist religion is open to anyone however.
There are many similarities between shamanist religions and Wicca. For one, the believe in multiple gods. For another, a strong nature-centric belief system. Rituals are actually fairly similar, in that they both involve alters, casting of circles, elements, wands, etc. They’re not exactly the same mind you, but the concepts are very similar.
Now, keep in mind, Wicca as we know it today is not a direct translation of some ancient way as some would have you believe. Modern Wicca and Neo Paganism are based on what we still know of ancient cultures and nature worshippers. One of the most intact and accessible ancient nature religions in the world is the Native American’s. Therefore, it is not at all hard to understand why the Wicca and Native American practices are similar, is it?
That being said, I don’t see why, personally, you couldn’t mix the two. You wouldn’t *technically* be either Wiccan or a Shaman however. You’d be a hybrid. If you called yourself “Pagan” though no one would care either way. :)
-K’Tok
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LadyRaven
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Merry Meet. I do not see why you are so concerned about this topic. No one should ever have to choose between one path or another. The whole point of being Pagan, etc, is the strong point of individuality. Whatever path you choose is correct. You can combine as many as you want to, take pieces from different paths, cultures, religions, cults even, and put them together to form YOUR path. I, for one, agree with you that Wiccanism and Native American cultures may be combined. Native American cultures are very much linked to Shamanism; and Shamanism has often been linked with Witchcraft and Wiccanism. Don't ever feel that the choices you make may be the wrong choices, or that someone else might not agree with you. Your path is who you are, and who you will become. Cherish the choices you make in life! Blessed Be! Lady Raven.
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morningdove
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The first Wiccan I ever met was way into Native American Spirituality.... I don't think it's a problem, at least not with the Wiccans.
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Anja
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Theese two can easy be combined, hay you can combine nearly everything it just become a more or less strange mix, this is one of the less strange mixes.
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Redlady
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I know this was posted a long time ago but just in case. Visit this site:
http://www.newagefraud.org/
If you are really interested in Native American spirituality I would suggest you take a Native American Philiosophy class or go to a Pow-Wow and do your research. Research not from a New Age/Pagan/Wiccan book, those are not accurate sources for Native American spirituality.
Would you combine Judism and Islam? No, even though they share the same God they are two different religions, just as Wicca and any of the Native American religions are.
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Katrina
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Personally, I've been planning to eventually adopt Native American Gods as my patrons. It makes sense, since they are the Gods of the land, so you are closer to where the Gods came from and where they have power. I found out a few years ago that my family has ties to two native american tribes. So I've been trying to research the one that is local and possibly adopting some of their traditiond into my working.
Out of curiosity, why would anyone think it was ok to use Egyptian, Greek, or Celtic gods/traditions, but not native American? I'm just curious about what the reasoning would be, since it never occured to me that there would be a limit there.
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Redlady
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Using a Native American god/dess as a patron is different than meshing the belief system of a Native American tradition with Wicca. My major patron is the Trickster, who happens to take the form of the Coyote or Raven most often. This does not mean, however, that I take part in Native American traditions.
Personally, I took me a long time to find a patron because I do not like Ancient Greek or Roman culture, nor do I find my self aligned with Egyptian, Celtic, Norse, Slavic, or Finnic culture. I looked into them and while some parts are appeasing, the context and meaning behind the culture and deities are not.
A Wicca (though not nessacarily) works with magic, rituals, and otherworldly things. In a Native American tradition that is not the place of an everyday person. A person, trained by another, is responsible for the tribes religious/spiritual/supernatural needs.
Belief systems, traditions are more than a form of a god. They are a way of life.
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Katrina
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In most tribes there are rituals/prayers/devotions/rites/etc that are undertaken by non-shamans. Why would it be wrong to adopt these things into a wiccan beliefs system?
You seem to be implying that some is okay, but there is a limit. Where is the limit, and why is that the limit? I know you will eventually hit a point where it stops being Wicca, but if you maintained the essential core of Wicca and the identifying aspects of wicca, there where is the limit? Is using a spearhead for an athame too far? Tribal dancing around the altar? Vision quests? Is there a point where it is not "Okay"? And if so, what is it, and why?
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Redlady
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One could adopt them, as long as one was clear in the meaning and context behind it. Ritual/prayers/devotions/rites/ets are nothing unless one takes into account the history, meaning, and motivation behind it.
To address your many other questions, bear with me:
1&2) My point of these posts is not to keep the integerity of the Wicca system, but to protect the integerity of the Native American belief systems. Though it may seem like the history of human cultures is a buffet to pick and choose the parts you like and the parts don't, it is an affront to those cultures (not just Native American, but Celtic, Greek, Slavic, and Hindi as well) to not see where you are taking things from.
3) A spearhead is common in many different cultures, though one must take into account a the more violant meaning behind a spearhead (an object used in warfare and hunting) as opposed to a simple athame (which can range from a dagger to a kichen knife).
4) Tribal dancing is also found in many different cultures besides that of Native Americans, but if you are planning a certain dance or song. Analyize if the meaning behind it is appropriate.
5) Vision quests, real vision quests, are dangerous and should only be done with the guidance of one who is trained to do so. There are also different types of vision quests, one requires you to be buried alive for three days. What is the purpose behind using a Native American tradition vision quest?
6) It is not okay to blinding pick and choose these things. Every tradition has its own history and energy behind it, the people and sacrifices, festivals and lore. One must look inside themselves, past what seems cool or different and really analyize the true motivations for embracing a piece of this tradition.
The New Age movement (of which Wicca is apart of) has seriously abused many Native American traditions. I am including a few links that cover the topic better than I can.
http://www.legendarysurfers.com/naw/blog/2004/10/plastic-sha mans.html
http://www.williams.edu/go/native/index.htm
Remember these arguements can also be used from the Ancient European and Near Eastern cultures, it's just those people aren't around any more to defend it.
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Katrina
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So you think it's ok as long as sufficient respect is given to the original source? Makes sense in pretty much all cases.
Just a few small points - not all native american traditions still have people left to defend them. Several have been killed off (most without having their traditions recorded, unfortunately). There are several versions of vision quests, not all of them are dangerous or require supervision. Blindly picking and choosing something to incorporate into your personal belief system is never "ok" and anyone who does is betraying their own spirituality as much that of their source material. I don't think that should be a special consideration when dealing with Native American traditions.
I also find it amusing that you would call an athame "simple". It, too, has a rich variety of meanings, interpretations, and history. I would hardly call any ritual tool "simple" That's kind of like saying "nothing fancy like a church, just a simple parthenon". There's no reason to down-play the significance of wiccan tools/beliefs.
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Redlady
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-Yes I do understand not all Native American traditions have their people left. But the modern day Native American activists for Native American traditions defend all of them, regardless of tribe for the most part.
-All vision quests, true vision quests, require supervision and guidance. Most traditions pass on lore through oral teachings, especially when it is about something as powerful as a vision quest. There are many steps before and after the actual vision quest that one can only do with guidance. The only way to do a vision quest by yourself is if you are intimately involved in the culture that practices it regularly, case in point Crazy Horse. But I must stress, vision quests are dangerous... they push your body to the limit, that is what they are intended to do. When I speak of vision quests I do not speak of astral meditations, I speak of the vision quests used in many Native American traditions.
-This is where we differ, I do think there should be special consideration when dealing with Native American traditions, if you check out the links I listed previously you should see why. Their traditions are constantly being explotied for profit, that and the constant discrimination they still face today.
"FOR MANY NATIVE AMERICAN civil rights advocates are
cultural issues related to the ability to maintain and pass on
traditional religious beliefs, languages and social practices without
fear of discrimination. For example, Native Americans have long fought
to protect their religious freedom from repeated acts of governmental
suppression -- including the denial of access to religious sites,
prohibitions on the use or possession of sacred objects, and
restrictions on their ability to worship through ceremonial and
traditional means.
IN 1988, for example, in Lyng v. Northwest Indian Cemetery
Protection Association, the Supreme Court allowed the construction of a
Forest Service road through an ancient site held sacred by several
tribes. In a setback for Native Americans' religious freedoms, the
Court ruled that such intrusion did not violate the Indians' First
Amendment rights." http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/na tive.html
- You misunderstand my meaning of 'simple', I meant it to refer to the style and meaning behind it, not the importance (that is another topic for another day). By simple athame I mean a traditional black handled double edged ritual knife, compare than to a spearhead, it is simple, basic, and traditional within the scope of Wicca. With a simple context and meaning behind it, it is a ritual tool used to direct energy, unlike a spearhead which I noted in my previous post.
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Katrina
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What about native american groups that market their traditional practices? I mean when they do things like sell sage smudges and invite people from the comminity to witness traditional events. Is it any less wrong to incorporate these things into one's own traditions?
I know some groups try to keep their traditions "pure" but what about those that freely share? Do you make a distinction, or do you see any differences?
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Redlady
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I don't see selling sage and inviting people as marketing. If any group is marketing thier practices and belief system that is wrong, be they Native American, Christian, Muslim, or Wiccan.
I think we need to get into specifics here: What are some things that you would incorporate?
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Katrina
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I don't actually feel the need to validate my choices. As I mentionned originally, I plan to eventually incorporate aspects of native american tradition into my spiritual practices. I don't see anything wrong with it. I intend to do the research first, and make my decisions once I have a better understanding. Which aspects I adopt or ignore will be my own decision. If I want to discuss them, then I will post about them.
What I am curious about is your position that it is wrong to combine religions and that it is somehow a violation to adopt native traditions. I'm not exactly clear on your reasoning. People combine religions all the time. Whether they are incoprating an outside set of beliefs into wicca or raising a child in a home with two religions. They is nothing fundamentally wrong with combining religions any more than there is something fundametally wrong with constantly having more off-shoots of a religion until they are so different they are no longer considered the same religion.
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Redlady
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http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html
The above link and all the links that I have posted, if you have read them, clearly put forward why I am against this. But to be a a bit more clear:
1. While one may incorporate Native American traditions, they will be false. Those traditions are based off communal and tribal living. I doubt many of us can say we live in these same conditions to meet the worldview needed for the Native American traditions.
2. In the New Age movement, which Wicca is a part of, has been the perpetuation of Native racial stereotyping ("The Hollywood Indian"), cultural fetishism and the distortions of historic and anthropological insights into Native Americans' multiple and diverse ways of life and spirituality.
3. Imagine this sentance is a Native American tradition:
"There are green trees by the river in the West"
Say 'trees' is a certain practice of the spiritual part of that tradition. In order to have it fit with ones tradition that is nothing like the Native American tradition, one has to take away the 's' which represents the communal aspect of the practice, 'r' which represents the roles of the holy men of the tribe who are trained and guided by others of the tribe, 't' which represents meaning for doing the practice during that time and place.
All that is left over is 'ee' which means nothing. A practice is nothing unless the context within the culture and society are taken into consideration.
Personally I think it is time for Wiccans to realize that our religion is not an 'old way', we live in this era and this society and are practices should represent that.
Did the Ancient Cultures have to deal with computers, cell phones, traffic? No. Did they work magic for individual interest? No! Wicca does, our society focuses on individuality moreso than any other time in the past, so why would gathering practices that see individuality, like we do, as something to be avoided be alright. These are two separate worldviews.
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Redlady
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Here is another link:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/9134/spirit.ht ml
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Katrina
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I see a pretty big difference between a single person doing research and adopting a few beliefs and selling a tall-tale about your introduction to shamanism as true.
I'm not saying that the tribes who are offended are wrong, but I can only find references to a handfull of american tribes who've spoken out against the marketing of their beliefs. The only thing I've found in Canada that comes close to this is non-Inuit people making and selling "Inuit art" without informing the buyers that it was created by a non-Inuit. That is now considered fraud.
I don't understand how it is wrong for an individual to want to adopt native beliefs. And I certainly don't see what's wrong with combining religions. You mentionned earlier that you saw something wrong with it in general, not just where it applies to Native beliefs. COuld you explain that?
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Redlady
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Native American beliefs are based off community, how can an individual adopt beliefs that require a communal setting? That is like one wanting to adopt a Catholic Mass ritual for Wicca. The beliefs, traditions, and practices of the Native American peoples are communal, they require a community to do them. This is true for most of the Ancient Cultures (Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Slavic, Finnic, etc) that many Wiccans 'adopt'.
Wicca is a new religion, it tries to carry the banner for the Old Ways, but when it comes to community and individuality is has nothing in common with pre-Christian cultures. It is individualistic, independant, and has everyone of the religion practice magic. These are not the ways of the Native Americans nor of the pre-Christian societies. Religion is a part of society, not separate from it. Not only that but many of the rituals and practices that were performed by these peoples have been replaced in our society by doctors, midwifes, therapists, teachers, science, judical systems, etc.
Unless you wish to have a communal religious system, why would you borrow the beliefs from a system that did?
What I believe most people do is adopt physical aspects of a belief system, things that could be taken out of context (ie using a spearhead, stylistic approach to a ritual like drumming and dancing, the name of a deity, etc). This is not adopting Native American (nor any other cultures) beliefs, that is a farse. I have never met one person that truely adopted a Native American belief, if they had they would not be Wiccan.
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Redlady
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Also I realize that this debate, as it continues further, may take a personal feel to it, which I doubt either of us intend it to have. To counteract that, please if anyone else has an opinion on this, post it.
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College Wicca Discussion Forum : Wicca, Paganism, and Alternate Religions
Topic: can Wiccan and Native american be combine
